< Messages posted to thread: >

< Union Parent 18-Jun-98 >

< way to go 18-Jun-98 >

< Paid for 19-Jun-98 >

< Questioning 19-Jun-98 >

< Jim D 19-Jun-98 >

< Sounds like a plan to me! 19-Jun-98 >

< Questioning 19-Jun-98 >

< Bloomfield Taxpayer 21-Jun-98 >

< Questioning 22-Jun-98 >

< Ray 22-Jun-98 >

< Jim D 23-Jun-98 >

< Bloomfield TP 24-Jun-98 >

< Questioning 24-Jun-98 >

< Questioning 25-Jun-98 >

< taxpayer2 27-Jun-98 >

< Questioning 28-Jun-98 >

< taxpayer2 30-Jun-98 >

< Questioning 30-Jun-98 >

< taxpayer2 01-Jul-98 >

< Questioning 01-Jul-98 >

< taxpayer2 02-Jul-98 >

< taxpayer2 02-Jul-98 >

< Ray 02-Jul-98 >

< To Questioning 02-Jul-98 >

< taxpayer2 02-Jul-98 >

< Ray 02-Jul-98 >

< Questioning 02-Jul-98 >

< try these 02-Jul-98 >

< Questioning 06-Jul-98 >

< To Questioning 06-Jul-98 >

< el profesor 07-Jul-98 >

< Questioning 07-Jul-98 >

< el profesor 08-Jul-98 >

< el profesor 08-Jul-98 >

< el profesor 08-Jul-98 >

< el profesor 08-Jul-98 >

< Questioning 08-Jul-98 >

< Not Impressed 13-Jul-98 >

< Bloomfield Resident 14-Jul-98 >

< taxpayer2 15-Jul-98 >

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Union Parent
< Date: 18-Jun-98 >

The Union BOE seems to be moving forward with their Technology agenda. At last Tuesdays meeting they passed 2 resolutions in that area. As Mr. Panella explained it, we will have all new computer rooms with 25 new workstations in all of our elementary schools and middle schools. Also, all schools in town will be on-line with the internet. Good news for our students. We still have a ways to go, but it's a good start. I'd like to see internet connections in the classrooms too.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >way to go
< Date: 18-Jun-98 >

I think that technology is great as long as it is not going to cost the taxpayers toooooo much money/year. Between the schools and library, everyone should have the benifit of computers and the net.

There is so much to learn in todays society.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Paid for
< Date: 19-Jun-98 >

From what they said at Tuesday meeting, everything will ne paid for through some kind of state aid and through the 2nd budget question that was voted on in April. We have to remember that a good education doesn't come cheap.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 19-Jun-98 >

As I understand what the Union BOE did, it was a great move from the taxpayers point of view. I am told that Comcast has undertaken to keep the leased equipment up to date. It is only a two year lease, which allows for real flexibility. And the use of high speed cable modems should really be interesting.

I would appreciate someone who knows about the deal putting some specifics here.

Isn't there a Comcast person who sometimes checks in here, and a "Jim D" who is a member of the Union BOE?

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Jim D
< Date: 19-Jun-98 >

This plan is just the beginning of a 5 year project. Plans are to put an article in the paper with more details, prior to the end of the summer. But basically, there are two parts.

First is the purchase of 25 new computers, a file server, 3 printers, and a 25" TV/monitor for each school to create a LAN connecting 2 labs and the media center in each to provide for internet access. This project includes all lab network infrastructure at 10/100 base ethernet specs which includes cableing and any other connective devices such as CATV cable runs, wall jacks, etc, and staff training.

The second part is the actual internet connection. The district entered the current year with 31, non-networked dial-up modems using 8 different ISP's scattered throughout the district. Through a partnership with the public library, the Electronic Doorway, connections were also provided in the Middle & High schools. None of these conections were used with the curricula in a planned approach. What was accomplished was by chance and not design. Staff training was impossible on any manageable scale because the internet was not available other than on single computers and in areas not conducive to group training.

8 months of study and 16 companies later, the district has decided on Comcast Commercial On-Line as it's ISP. This is cost effective in several ways. The district is not required to purchase end-user equipment. It is leased as part of the annual fee structure. This reduces up front costs and allows for the ongoing upgrading of the equipment at no cost to the district. Also, Comcast provides website proxy caching at each site and Web hosting at no additional expense that will allow the district to have its own URL and to develop a district web page. Comcast also projects that within the next year it will be able to provide a virtual private network (VPN) for the district. This part of the plan is for 1998-99.

For 1999-2000, the need is to develop a MAN (Metropolitan Area Network) that will connect each school to ech school with one lead to the Internet from the high school. The desire is to have schools able to communicate with schools without having to go out to the NET and back and offices/classrooms within schools communicate without having to leave the building level network.

The funding is both from Distance Learning Aid and bidget monies passed in budget question #2.

Briefly (?) that's it. Most of the above was from a report by Dr Abbey to the BOE. Any questions? I'll try to answer or get the answer.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Sounds like a plan to me!
< Date: 19-Jun-98 >

Can't wait till the websites are in:

- my wife checks, what the cafeteria is serving, - when our parent/teacher conference is scheduled for, - to send the nurse an E-mail that my kid is sick and won't be in today, - my son, who "forgot" what his homework was, checks his class' homepage, - my daughter follows a link to help her out with that Math she's been struggling with, - me to find out when the baseball team has a home game, - to get a list of tutors in the area, - and more importantly "NO MORE SNOW CHAIN PHONE CALLS TO MAKE"

I'm sure you'll have ideas out there, let's hear them

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 19-Jun-98 >

Thanks, Jim D. Sounds pretty good to me. I am interested seeing how it develops. Please keep us posted.

Tell us how it is to be used in the curriculum, as well. It is great to have all that access, but what will you do with it?

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Bloomfield Taxpayer
< Date: 21-Jun-98 >

Thank you for the valuable information Jim D.! Parents, teachers, and principals can keep in touch via e-mail. There is a wonderful article about one school district's use of e-mail to strengthen its parent-teacher associations and reach out to the community. There are many productive and creative uses of e-mail. This article appeared in the June issue of T.H.E. Journal.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 22-Jun-98 >

Bloomfield Taxpayer: If there is a specific research in the T.H.E. Journal which would help in the search for "serious research" in showing that the use of computers significantly improves the education of our kids, tell me where it is. I went to T.H.E. Journal's home page and find a lot of calls for papers.

I know this might sound like heresy to some, but what real evidence do we have that the substantial investment in computers is worth the bucks? When we started this, I asked if anyone had any studies from the Hunterdon Central School District, a district that has spent a lot of money on computers based on nothing but blind faith. In the several weeks that we have been pursuing this thread, we have gotten no response.

Some people believe it is obvious that the use of computers will enhance education, or that since "computer skills" will be needed in any job in the future, we should support the use of computers in schools. Many people using computers with considerable skill today are people who never had a computer course in school, or even college. Computer "training" as opposed to "education" can be had in a relatively short time. And since software and hardware are changing constantly, "training" will be an ongoing activity, long after school.

Again, to set the record straight, I do not oppose the use of computers in education. I would like to be confident we are doing something close to the right thing, and not just playing with toys (remember the language labs) or to satify someone's ego. When the lady from the U.S. Dept. of Education says it is about time we did some "serious research," I get a little nervous.

The approach described by Jim D for his school district seems to make some sense, at least.

Please, can we hear from someone in the Hunterdon Central district? I can't believe that there is no one from there reading this thread.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Ray
< Date: 22-Jun-98 >

Why would someone from Hunterdon County be reading about Essex and Union counties? Do you spend much time at the Hunterdon Democrat's web site?

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Jim D
< Date: 23-Jun-98 >

Mrs. Lombardi's staff is currently putting together curriculum tie-ins.

To Questioning: The way I see it there are 4 basic applications for computers in school. 1- Learning how to use them (which may be more redundant in today's society than it used to be); 2- using them as a learning tool as we used to use A.V. when you & I were in school. - Use of the miriad of sources on the internet and on CD's give the teacher a much wider and unlimited scope of material to use in their lessons than films or filmstrips (remember them?) ever could. And the kids can interact, which keeps them interested and involved which in turn improves learning. (How many movies did you fall asleep on in HS?); 3- As a tool for better communications as mentioned above.

I don't think there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of these uses of computers in school. It's the 4th use which seems in some minds to be in doubt as to its effectiveness, and that is learning software which gives kids their "lessons" via computer. I believe as I have said before, that there are definite positives in this approach but that it has a ceiling or point of diminishing returns. What that ceiling is may perhaps be different in different districts and it may come down to a trial & error situation in each. This approach is already being used in Union in the Basic Skills program at C5 with successful results.

I know Dr Abbey has spoken with the folks at Hunterdon Central and I'll try to get more info when he returns from vacation in early July.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Bloomfield TP
< Date: 24-Jun-98 >

Mr. or Mrs. Questioning, please e-mail T.H.E. Journal and ask them to send you a copy of all their longitudinal studies. They are usually pretty accommodating.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 24-Jun-98 >

I guess, B.T., you would like me to discern the "serious studies" from the fribolous studies, in the T.H.E. Journal?

What started this, I would like to remind everyone, is the article in the New York Times of April 27, which reported that Linda Roberts, director of the Office of Educational Technology at the United States Department of Education, a person who should know if there is "serious research" around, said that it is important to "collect baseline data and to deliberately track performance." She said that research is necessary to show that billions of dollars now being spent across the country on school wiring are worth it. She said, "school districts will be called to task for 'what are you doing wity your money and what difference does it make?'"

The article goes on to say "a number of critics are questioning whether the investment in school technology is a wise one. Among other things, they wonder to what extent the drive is being pushed by hardware and software companies with an economic interest in cultivating a lucrative market for their wares in schools."

It continues "they also wonder how much truly valuable classroom content exists free on the World Wide Web. And they note that technology is expensive and quickly obsolete, and that, to date, there is little hard research establishing that it helps students learn better."

When the one person at the federal level who should know, now says we should do the research to justify the expendatures we, as taxpayers, have already made, I am a little nervous. Does she mean we really don't know if it does any real good? Apparently so. I am asking those who support the expendature of significant money for technology to point to the facts and "serious studies" that would justify the expendature.

So far, not a single person has pointed to a specific study that answers the question. They have just said I should go and read some Journal or something. You are asking me to spend my money and to go out and find the justification for it myself. I am sorry, I can't see the king's new clothes. Show me.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 25-Jun-98 >

Is the discussion over?

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >taxpayer2
< Date: 27-Jun-98 >

Questioning -

I must admit that the studies that I have seen came from the software producers.

From experience I have utilized SAT software for my kids and it has been engaging and effective.

Classified ads in the newspapers demand experience in computer use.

I continually use the internet for a wide range of information and it hasn't failed me yet.

I agree that money spent on technology can be wasted. I base this on the lack of teacher computer literacy. I would much perfer the push for technology come for the teachers themselves. The true test is when the teacher's colleges use the compters in curriculum development and as a hands on tool for students.

However; your "questioning" is an excercise in circular reasoning. "If I do not have the tool then when do I learn to use it?" Once upon a time the big controversy was why did students need to be issued textbooks. The same agrument was put forth. "If the teacher has the textbook and reads it to the classroom of students then why do the individual students need texbooks?" Again the issue was money. There were no studies to show one way or the other if it was more effective for the teacher to read to the students or give the students textbooks and let them read for themselves.

I think that the answer to the question was a wise one. Students learned that knowledge can be gained by initiative and self reliance. Now we are presented with an different tool, one that would enhance initiative and self reliance even more with an ulimited access to information.

Again the question is asked - prove it to me.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 28-Jun-98 >

There are a lot of tools that are required for the work environment. Give me a student who has normal eye/hand coordination, and who can read well and think and I will train them on a computer quick enough. What are the "computer skills" you speak of? Programming? Hardware installation and repair? Keyboarding? Or, perhaps knowing specific software packages like Lotus, Word for Windows, or the like?

Computers are hardly a substitute for books as a source of reading materials. In essence, the computer is a high speed messenger that goes and gets reading materials faster than a person can do it. It can do math problems faster as well. It also gets messages and delivers them fast. But a computer does not do anything that a student can do to become educated. To be sure it is a wonderful tool, but that is all it is.

Look, I would not have bothered, but for the fact that is the one person in the US Dept of Education who should know best, who says we now need to do the research to see if the use of computers really is cost effective and results in better educated children. All I am saying is "Show me the research!" So far, no one has.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >taxpayer2
< Date: 30-Jun-98 >

You answered your own question. "To be sure it is a wonderful tool."

For example: an electric typwritter is a better tool than a manual typewritter. The question that you ask is whether a person can write better on an electric typewriter than a manual typewriter?

You try to find the research on that one. Again the computer is a better tool. It enhances the learning process.

I also question the hypothesis that "one person in the US Department of Education should know best". I think that the "one person" is in the pocket of the NEA and is frightened of what impact the "wonderful tool" could have on the current public education bureacracy.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 30-Jun-98 >

Just show me the research! The computer is a wonderful tool for production, but is it a wonderful tool for education?

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >taxpayer2
< Date: 01-Jul-98 >

Questioning -

Man - are you a one note musician!!!!

Obviously not adept at the internet. Just go back to the very same US Dept of Education and then go to Office of Educational Technology. Once there go to Pubs & Research and read to your hearts content.

If you are so inclined for a more intellectual challenge get the book "Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald, psychologist. His book is about the evolution of man's intellect through new "systems of representation". He contends that we (including you) are evolving into computer-connected beings with a computer culture and a computer civilization.

Now if you get that far and have any questions about the book I am sure the Ray Lehman can help you.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 01-Jul-98 >

As I said: Show me the research! Don't point me to a self serving hypothesis, or to a general body of knowledge and tell me to find it. If your arguement is that technology enhances the ability of our kids to learn, just point me to specific demonstrable results. If you don't know of any, just say so. You'll be in good company.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >taxpayer2
< Date: 02-Jul-98 >

Questioning -

Goodby

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >taxpayer2
< Date: 02-Jul-98 >

Questioning (Alias "One Note")

Goodby

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Ray
< Date: 02-Jul-98 >

Hey, T2.

I'm wondering if you might also be "GOPirate." You both have the habit of misspelling my last name. It's "Lehmann," like the model train company, not "Lehman," like the golfer.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >To Questioning
< Date: 02-Jul-98 >

You're obviously hung up on this issue, YOU do the research. I suggest that you're WRONG, now YOU show me you're RIGHT! (And quoting one source doesn't count)

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >taxpayer2
< Date: 02-Jul-98 >

Dear Mr. Lehmann,

I am not GOPirate and I apologize.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Ray
< Date: 02-Jul-98 >

No sweat. It's a common mistake. I was just curious.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 02-Jul-98 >

After looking, and consulting a number of individuals who should know, I have concluded that there is no serious research demonstrating that the use of computers increases the level of performance of students on any of the recognized and standardized tests. It simply isn't there.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >try these
< Date: 02-Jul-98 >

To Questioning: I've listed a couple of sites for your review. After you review them, come back to the thread and we'll discuss them. There's your evidence.

http://www.cue.org/News/index.html..... http://www.ozline.com/learning/theory.html..... http://www.syllabus.com/index.html..... http://www.nctp.com/.....

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 06-Jul-98 >

I have visited three of the four sites noted. I was unabel to connect to syllabus.com. I admit that I did not do an exhaustive search, but a quick review did not turn up any research that indicated that the use of computers has actually improved the test scores of the kids using them.

Indeed, one article seems to make the point that I suspect is the case. That is, all of this seems to work toward tht justification of a decision that has already been made. The following is from nctp.com:

Promoting Technology: 13 Ways to Do It Author: Karen Robertson. Reprinted from Electronic Learning. Here are some great ideas to turn educators, students and community members into technology users and supporters. These are methods used successfully to promote technology.

In all seriousness, if there are particular articles at these sites that support the proposition that the use of computers and the internet has demonstrably increased the standardized test scores of the students that use them, please point to them.

One final question: Are the kids from other countries who outscore ours in math and science testing using computers to assist in gaining their advantage?

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >To Questioning
< Date: 06-Jul-98 >

Don't be too impressed with the scores of the kids from other countries in math and science. The real test of the educational success of any country is its ability to produce goods and services for a high quality life for its citizens. The good old U.S. of A. does that better than any other country.

Maybe we're not measuring the "right stuff." (Pun intended.)

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >el profesor
< Date: 07-Jul-98 >

I would be impressed with the scores of the kids from other countries for sure. I would think that the real test of the educational success of a country would be to look at those scores. I mean, wouldn't that be the obvious thing? I don't know how many people I've known that have come from foreign countries after secondary schooling to the US for their college education. I'll give you that...the colleges in the US are better than most, if not all, other countries. However, if you say that the educational system in the United States leading up to college is better than any other country, I would definitely have to disagree.

To answer Questioning's remark as to whether the students from the other countries use computers to assist them, the answer is definitely yes. However, I would only cite the computers as part of the reasoning for their scores. The other major part is that their educational systems are more organized and consistent among the income groups than the US is.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 07-Jul-98 >

To el professor:

You say: "To answer Questioning's remark as to whether the students from the other countries use computers to assist them, the answer is definitely yes."

I would not be surprised that kids in other countries do use computers, but I understand that we are, by far, the most computerized nation in the world. I hate to sound like a broken record, but what is the basis for your statement? And, is there any serious support for the proposition that they made any real difference in the performance of those students?

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >el profesor
< Date: 08-Jul-98 >

well, after doing some research (god, it's like I'm doing an essay in college again), I've found the following:

Questioning, you say that the US is the most computerized nation in the world, which is true for education according to government statistics: Educational indicators compared to other countries This link shows that 100% of US schools have computers, which obviously is the highest among all countries surveyed. However, the RATIO of students/computers is among the lowest of all countries surveyed.

By looking at some other data, namely the TIMSS data of International Performance , the US has the worst math and science scores among some 25 countries surveyed. You can possibly conclude that one of the factors involved in this is due to the lack of computer access for students, although it is obvious that further, DIRECT research is necessary.

A couple of other good links that describe internet usage, advanced telecommunications usage in school are the following:

1.) Internet Use among Students - This page shows the progress of Internet usage among all levels of schooling compared to a few years back. It's interesting to note that the usage is continually going up at very fast rates.

2.) Advanced Telecommunications Use in Schools - This page describes usage of advanced telecommunications, including the Internet, mainly with teachers but also with students. It shows what the progress of teachers are with respect to this usage, including what they use it for, such as personal teaching skills advancement, research, distance learning, etc.

3.) Conditions of Education, 1997 - This page describes an important issue, namely the numbers of students that use computers, either at home or at school, or both (I don't remember), and WHAT they use the computers for, such as for games, for writing stories or papers, etc. It's important to note here that with these numbers, you can see that a large proportion of students use these computers for what can be called "creative expansion" purposes - writing stories, browsing the web (for pleasure or gathering of information), playing games (educational or otherwise), etc. You must remember as well that an "intelligent" person is not one that is necessarily "book-smart", but one that is well-rounded and learns about numerous different things, whether it's the arts, music, current events, or cultural issues as well. These are things that cannot be directly "analyzed" in studies, surveys, and such research.

4.) This link HERE is a continuation of #3, but I don't remember exactly what is described.

Hopefully, this sheds a bit more light on your issues, Questioning. Developing data that directly correlates computer usage in school/home with actual grades is important, but doesn't seem to be available right now. Part of it is due to the fact that this is an issue that has only arisen recently. Remember that use of computers and the Internet has only been around for the past 7 years or now, tops. Another thing that has to be realized, though, is that there are a number of intangibles that computers provide. Things such as computer literacy (which you can't really "grade"), logical thinking processes, multi-culturalism (possibly), improved and quicker means of getting jobs done, etc.

Remember that when the calculator first came into existence, people scoffed it as a terrible thing for schools, where students wouldn't learn as well as if they did the calculations themselves, etc. There hasn't been any proof that these things actually improve the education of children, but how many people do you see not using them. Hell, they even use them for the SATs nowadays.

That's enough from me, my head hurts. :) If the links don't actually work, then I guess you could just cut & paste them.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >el profesor
< Date: 08-Jul-98 >

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >el profesor
< Date: 08-Jul-98 >

man, am I losing it.

The TIMSS link is wrong. This is the correct one:

TIMSS data

sorry bout that

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >el profesor
< Date: 08-Jul-98 >

ok, I have officially lost it now. That link is wrong, too.

This is the link, I swear.

TIMSS data

if it's wrong, well then you figure it out, for cryin' out loud....... :)

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Questioning
< Date: 08-Jul-98 >

To el professor:

I must say that I am impressed with your responses. I will make it a point to look at all the sites you suggest (I owe you that much) and appreciate the work you've done in making a serious contribution to the discussion.

I am told that a number of municipal officials and board of ed members check out this site, and hopefully some of those people will also look.

Thanks.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Not Impressed
< Date: 13-Jul-98 >

For those of you who are impressed with either the high math scores of some Asian countries, or with the use of high tech, take a look at today's Wall Stree Journal (7/13/1998)at the article headlined "Human Error Causes System Glitches That Embarass New Asian Airports."

As they say: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >Bloomfield Resident
< Date: 14-Jul-98 >

To El Profesor: I checked out your links. They are very informative. The data show that children and adults in the U.S. have access to the newest technology and this does make an impact on education. You should see what people in the former Yugoeslavia, Ghana, and other third world countries have to do to get access to the Internet. It is almost impossible. My understanding is that they have Internet Cafes that charge the equivalent of $1 per hour. Although that may not seem a lot to you or me, it is a fortune to people who barely make $30 a week. Those looking for longitudinal studies that document gains in reading and writing can easily find them in the journal Computers and Composition. There are also excellent books, such as "Network-Based Classrooms" by Bruce, Kreeft Peyton & Batson, that present both qualitative and quantitative studies. The best data are obtained from longitudinal studies that include experimental and control groups.

Thank you Profesor for taking the time to search for those links.

< Subject: RE: Technology in School >
< From: >taxpayer2
< Date: 15-Jul-98 >

I miss the bambastic pontifications of Jim D. He must be at the shore enjoying time with his family.

I understand that "questioning" has had a difficult time getting someone to read all the above mentioned references to him/her.

And remember always "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". I have truly underrated the profound wisdom one can glean from the pages of the Wall Street Journal.